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Author Topic: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years  (Read 4500 times)

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Offline caterpillar

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 09:26:42 AM »
Although the intention of Mel (TS) was about a camera that can fulfill your photographic / video needs for the next 5 years, it is premature to speculate about the use of CF cards.  I’ve had my 8 MB CF card since 2002.  It’s just collecting dust but I know that the technology has been around and it just improved from there by producing faster read/write CF cards. It’s similar to what they did with SD cards.  Re: issue with you’re your Nintendo Wii, this can be easily fixed if Nintendo provides a firm ware update.  Majority of the time, we tend to lose focus on what matters to us.  I think it will help out if you begin with the “end in mind” concept.  Once you figure out what you want in the end, then you can work on which tools that can provide you the end results that you originally envisioned. 

Some of our wish list are realistic and can be achieved if we are willing to pay for its current price tag. Most people are asking for better technology but are unrealistic when it comes to price.  We should consider inflation, supply and demand.  How is the flooding in Thailand going to affect the camera manufacturers in the future?  How is the price going to play once the supply goes down?

There are some pros and cons when shifting to a different brand or system.  One should ask if it is worth the trouble.  Are you willing to compromise weight or convenience against “weather sealing” or better controls (as an example)?  What will you do if you don’t like your new dream system or if it just doesn’t meet your expectations?  Just food for thought.



  Don't worry,  Glenn. I am not fazed :) Such concerns are shallow and many don't even consider it.   The change in storage format is the least of our worries. It is a NON-ISSUE. Why?

  When I started digital photography ca 2000 with a bridge camera (Kodak dc-4800, an excellent camera), a 128mb (yes, mb, not gb) CF card costs about P4,000. P3,500 if you hunt for one. That's just a 16x (w/c is just coming out then).  Today, you can buy an 8gb for around P500 give or take.  And that runs around 200x or more.

  If you buy a new camera and they change to SD or any future variant, what do we care if we change storage? You can now get a 16gb class 10 for around P900! A class 10 32gb is now around P2,000 give or take a couple of hundred. Even if you are on a budget, an 8gb class 10 (or 6) can be had for around P500. So, what is the big deal with shifting memory cards format?

  Besides, if you look at notebooks, they don't sport CF cards anymore. And who has used smartmedia for a spell? Or even MS from Sony?

  WE musts remember than many switching issues becomes barriers to switching or entry is due to cost and compatibility. But if the cost is low to switch, the compatibility issue may fall by the wayside. 

  Finally, the reality is, standards, formats, etc are constantly coming in and out rapidly the past few years. Go backward just 5-7 years and most computers still have serial ports or parallel ports. So with some still having firewire ports. Now we don't see them. They are no longer needed. They are no longer needed because the next series of peripherals no longer use them. You can insist that you still have that old HP 6L printer with a parallel port or an old DV camera firewire, but then again, you start thinking that maybe it's time to move on and that if your printer or camera conks out the price of the repair is going to be 1/2 or 3/4 the cost of just getting a new faster, better, brand new printer or camera.

  We must realize, that old standards and format fall by the wayside for many reasons. Even in the case of a decade old standard SD going to SDHC or SDXC or whatever, yes, there can be slight  adjustments. But we must realize that as systems grow, the old standards no longer are adequate. Take the same SD. How can you live with a 32gb limitation when video now requires large memory sizes? To break that barrier you have to make a new standard. Of course, that would mean those old card readers won't do anymore. But would it pain you to buy a P100 SDHC card reader? Is it really that great a deal breaker for many for this inconvenience? Isn't it a bigger inconvenience to be limited on storage in a shot because you are only up to 32gb, especially when you are shooting video in 1080 60p?

  And you are right, the way to go is to envision the end goal and work backwards. And if the NEED is given the due consideration as the primary reason to go for something, then the specs and what is needed is just filled in. And we must realize that NEED and consumer demands of these needs is one driver for companies to innovate or change their specs. To think that things remain as they are is romanticizing the past or to remain limited and not move forward. The problem with that, like film, like firewire, like CF, you can insist on those all you want, but when you run dry of getting the things you need in the market then what needs to be upgrades is not so much as these things, but the mindset of the user. :)

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 09:26:42 AM »

Offline BigDeals

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 06:51:21 PM »
Interesting ideas.

For me, I would upgrade to lighter cameras using current features available.

Lighter is better. Less is more. Less gear more photos. :)

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2011, 07:14:31 PM »
Interesting ideas.

For me, I would upgrade to lighter cameras using current features available.

Lighter is better. Less is more. Less gear more photos. :)

This is something that I would have to disagree based on my observation.

Most people with point and shoot camera tend to put their camera in their pocket or bag which tend to get less usage.

People with larger or a standard DSLR tend to hang it around their neck or hold it and tends to shoot more frequent than a typical point and shoot.  This of course if you have data to prove your point.  To prove a point, point and shoot cameras have lesser battery capacity. Whenever you shoot with the flash on, it just drains out the battery real fast.  On a typical shoot, I normally shoot a minimum of 75 images and on average, I shoot around 150 images. Something that Point and shoot cameras don't normally achieve. 

Offline caterpillar

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2011, 07:17:59 PM »
Interesting ideas.

For me, I would upgrade to lighter cameras using current features available.

Lighter is better. Less is more. Less gear more photos. :)



Bigdeals,

  Me too! :)

  7-10 years ago, people all harped for higher pixel counts so they could get more details. Then when the pixel count became bigger but at the expense of noise, they said, enough and stop at 12mp. But technology marched forward and now you can go at 16-18mp and still have a clean high ISO at 3200 or even 6400. Unthinkable in 2004-2005 as ISO 800 is the boundary for something useful.

  Then people said they wanted dynamic range. And so NEX 5n and the SLTs coming out using it has shown better dynamic range. In essence, great changes have happened that many seem to take for granted or have forgotten. Those of us who started from the beginning do not forget the baby steps taken to be where we are now.

  What has failed and what Oly has failed to deliver is the promise of the 4/3 sensor. You are right that now, getting it small but performing like a full fledged dslr is the next round of promise that needs to be fulfilled. And I am hoping that in 5-10 years we won't see and lug large cameras anymore. And hopefully the same for most lenses. They too will get smaller, except for some, due to limits in physics, OEMs can't make them smaller.

  Where Oly has failed is not the size. Where they have failed is in making cameras and lenses small but retaining or even improving IQ. Panasonic is doing a better job, but it seems they are not as fast or as proflific in making them in quantities. I suspect that they are still churning on the night oil in the R&D to prepare for the next big push.

   By going small, it will probably lessen the macho or the "pro" look of many who carry those large DSLRs and lenses. But for those who have been at this for a time, like you perhaps, know how the large size and weight of gears eventually wears one done to the point that one does not want to carry the cameras anymore. And in some instances, the FUN part of it eventually fades.

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Offline ronbot

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2011, 08:05:17 PM »
How come noone mentioned the G3. I mean, I think it is better than the GX1 because it has the same sensor, a built-in EVF and articulated touch LCD all for the same or lower price. Sure, it is bigger but not by much and is mostly due to the EVF sticking up and to the back - body is still small and light.

The Samsung NX hasn't been mention either. The NX lens line up is looking good right now with sweet pancakes. The NX200 seems like a good option, though I'm curious to see what they will replace the NX11 with.

Anyway, I also like the E-PL3 (the E-P3 seems expensive) and it hard to go wrong with the NEX-5N, unless you desire smaller or just more lenses.

It's funny that 5 years seems like a long time; film cameras lasted much longer, but that's just how it is I guess.
e-pl2; oly 14-42mm II | 40-150mm; pany 20mm f1.7; minolta md 28mm f2.8 | 45mm f2 | 50mm f1.4 | 50mm f2 | 80-200mm f4; canon fd 28mm f2 | 85mm f1.8

Offline Gideon

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2011, 08:07:56 PM »
At least 5 years is 7D...
Begin 2 Imagine

Offline rasta

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2011, 01:56:12 PM »
This is something that I would have to disagree based on my observation.

Most people with point and shoot camera tend to put their camera in their pocket or bag which tend to get less usage.

People with larger or a standard DSLR tend to hang it around their neck or hold it and tends to shoot more frequent than a typical point and shoot.  This of course if you have data to prove your point.

If this is what BigDeals wants to upgrade to, this is probably because it is what works for him and there is nothing wrong with that :)

Offline gqtuazon

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2011, 03:01:52 PM »
If this is what BigDeals wants to upgrade to, this is probably because it is what works for him and there is nothing wrong with that :)

I agree. There is no debate needed on that.  :)

However, most inputs are from non-pro.  I am curious to what the pros would say such as a wedding photographer, sports photographer, journalist or even wild life photographer would need in order to remain competitive in their career.  I think the lenses will be more of a major factor.

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2011, 10:41:47 PM »
Bigdeals,

  Me too! :)

  7-10 years ago, people all harped for higher pixel counts so they could get more details. Then when the pixel count became bigger Iut at the expense of noise, they said, enough and stop at 12mp. But technology marched forward and now you can go at 16-18mp and still have a clean high ISO at 3200 or even 6400. Unthinkable in 2004-2005 as ISO 800 is the boundary for something useful.

  Then people said they wanted dynamic range. And so NEX 5n and the SLTs coming out using it has shown better dynamic range. In essence, great changes have happened that many seem to take for granted or have forgotten. Those of us who started from the beginning do not forget the baby steps taken to be where we are now.

  What has failed and what Oly has failed to deliver is the promise of the 4/3 sensor. You are right that now, getting it small but performing like a full fledged dslr is the next round of promise that needs to be fulfilled. And I am hoping that in 5-10 years we won't see and lug large cameras anymore. And hopefully the same for most lenses. They too will get smaller, except for some, due to limits in physics, OEMs can't make them smaller.

  Where Oly has failed is not the size. Where they have failed is in making cameras and lenses small but retaining or even improving IQ. Panasonic is doing a better job, but it seems they are not as fast or as proflific in making them in quantities. I suspect that they are still churning on the night oil in the R&D to prepare for the next big push.

   By going small, it will probably lessen the macho or the "pro" look of many who carry those large DSLRs and lenses. But for those who have been at this for a time, like you perhaps, know how the large size and weight of gears eventually wears one done to the point that one does not want to carry the cameras anymore. And in some instances, the FUN part of it eventually fades.



Yes I was thinking of the current DSLR features.
Making them lighter should be the next frontier for DSLR cameras.
They don't need to shrink in size. Shooting all day can really wear you down especially the shoulders and fingers. The joy of shooting should always be there. Heavy equipment tend to diminish the fun.

Thanks :)
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Offline caterpillar

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2011, 12:08:50 PM »
I agree. There is no debate needed on that.  :)

However, most inputs are from non-pro.  I am curious to what the pros would say such as a wedding photographer, sports photographer, journalist or even wild life photographer would need in order to remain competitive in their career.  I think the lenses will be more of a major factor.


If history is a guide, then we know that whenever possible, pros (PJs, weddings, etc,) tend to gravitate towards the smaller and lighter bodies. There are exceptions and the move may take years, especially for landscape shooters who do need the larger formats for detail, but for the rest, mostly the transition is certain.

  For example, rangefinders have been around since the 1930's, even 1920's. But news and PJ typicall use the speedgraphics or those large cameras with a bellows (according-like) body and those large flash bulbs that they have to remove and change once it fires.



  But it took a while (20-30 years). Only because the film of later years became very good and the advantages 35mm was good enough for most types of photography except special needs such as landscape and advertising. But in essence, the movement to smaller bodies then had to be based on the

And before SLRs matured, there were the TLRs. They were smaller than most bellows type cameras before them. Their other advantage is the easier and more accurate way to focus them and have better DOF control since the operator can see the actual focus instead of just basically "guessing" it. That regardless of it being a rangefinder or some other guesstimate method.



  Of course once SLRs finally got a foothold, the other formats slowly lost their market share, again except for some specialized photography. The pinnacle of the SLR and it's movement happend about mid-70's and basically it's golden era peaked around till the end of the 1980's. Their influence grew not just because they slowly became automated and had electronic parts growing in them, but also more due to the fact that film was getting better by the 80's.

  Wedding, events, journalists, glamour, etc basically embraced the smaller cameras (SLR). The smaller bodies, good enough IQ for most shooting situations, WYSIWYG optical viewfinder, ability to change lenses to suit shooting needs, lower cost of gear,  are the major plus points why eventually SLRs and the 35mm format supplanted other formats.

  If history is any guide, it won't be any different this time around. The only difference is that we are in a digital world, APS-C and m4/3 are the dominant competing film/sensor sizes, and the most important of all - even as rangefinders basically supplanted MD, then SLRs rangefinders, this time around, MILCs will supplant SLRs/DSLRs. The reasons are many, not just one. Without a doubt, size and weight are major issues that going mirrorless will alleviate.

  But the other technical limits, w/c pros will benefit from can be had only with a mirrorless system. I've already wrote them before but let me mention them again:

  - mirrorless eventually will not be bound by a mechanical shutter at as 12-15fps is likely the limit for DSLRs. MILCs can grow and evolve to hundreds of fps in the future without being limited by a mechanical shutter. The possibilities of fast framerates opens possibilities that only very expensive high speed cameras can do. Stop motion and super slow motion video will be possible. This is not to mention the possibilities opened for sports and action shooting. You can never do that with a DSLR.

  -  The OVF can never truly accurately represent DOF, actual color upon capture, 100% frame coverage, etc. Future electronic sensors and

  I will stop with these two. You get the drift. :)

  But from a practical POV, wouldn't a pro just want a smaller and lighter camera regardless if he is a PJ, a landscape shooter, a macro shooter, an events shooter, etc? Isn't size and weight an advantage, not a negative? Besides, if one wants heft or weight, it is easier to put on size and weight on a small/light camera than one that is large and heavy in the first place and you want to pare it down?

  In summary, I believe the majority of pros will embrace smaller and lighter gear given the choice between the two. But still the critical point is that the gear must be able to address the photographic needs of the tool/gear. But if two such tools exists and one is smaller and lighter, I think very few pros will not choose the smaller and lighter tool. ;)

 
 

 
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Offline gqtuazon

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2011, 03:07:55 PM »
Mel- I can visualize what you envisioned and it is possible to achieve that higher frame rates.  However, we must realize that a smaller body such as the NEX 5N as an example has its limitations.  Imagine you are a photographer from a newspaper trying to catch some money pictures of a politician or celebrity in New York City where the temperature is at 5 degrees Celsius and a wind chill factor of -10 degrees.  Your hands and fingers will be numb if you don't wear thick gloves. Trying to fiddle the menu and controls using gloves will be very challenging and could result with missed key shots.  In a perfect world, we always want a perfect tropical climate. But the majority of the market in the U.S. or Europe, the weather always changes and is harsh especially up North.  For sports photographer i.e. NASCAR, you'll need larger and longer lenses. So the idea of a smaller compact body just to have a lighter set-up does not attract these type of photographers except its higher fps.  In due time, the technology will improve but it will always change.  Historically, man will always improve on what we already have just like how you explained it.  We (consumer) have the option or choice not to go with the newer technology just like when the HD DVD and the blue-ray format came out.  I'm sure there are people here who still use their Phono or turn-table and listen to their favorite songs.  A similar example is this guy who still uses his Rolleiflex camera.


D7K_071 by gqtuazon, on Flickr

Don't get me wrong. I do want a smaller, lighter, with interchangeable lens camera once I get older in life but not yet.  I have entertained the idea but the more I use my equipment, the more I love using it regardless of its bulk or weight.

The reason why Sony's proprietary memory stick pro are still around is because it still uses the same product for the PSP, laptops, TV and camera products unlike Fuji who had limited products and market for the Xd memory cards.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 03:12:09 PM by gqtuazon »

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2011, 04:44:46 PM »
What Mel envision will actually come in one form or another. How soon? Maybe soon!! Is the MIC really the thing that will dominate the market? It depends on the camera makers to give us the products that will fit our needs.Peoples need also are evolving so we may able to predict but not exactly the way that we surmised it. So I will just like to add what I wish in a camera so I may not upgrade for the next five years:1) I can shoot stills and video at the same time without interruption or lag and will not compromise the resolution.2) I can virtually shoot at night without noise.

Glenn, the man behind the rollei is tinkering in on an oldie cam but listening to an audio device.Seems there is a contrasting scene.He maybe one of those mechanical guys who can resurrect an old technology to work even in a modern world. Maybe someday someone will be taking our pictures when we work on our old DSLR 10-15 years from now.  ;)

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2011, 08:14:03 AM »
From what I know, Sony is headed to the direction of what caterpillar envisions. This is especially true with their latest DSLR hybrid. They're trying to meld the best of both worlds. From their perspective, MILCs don't necessarily have to have smaller bodies all the time. When the mirror mechanism is removed, manufacturers will have a heck of a lot more space to cram in just about anything: bigger battery, more electronic components, etc. I tend to agree. Nikon is quoted as disagreeing on that, though. But then again, they may already experimenting and using the Nikon 1 series as test bed, hence the reason why they didn't create it for pros. They'll use consumers as test bed on how far they can go with the mirrorless concept and then eventually incorporate those ideas in their pro line once they feel confident enough.

I tend to agree with Sony, though. Remove the mirrors, and you can use the extra space for a lot of enhancements (quad-core cpu perhaps?). Right now, though, OVFs have distinct advantages over EVFs, but given a year, the gap may be really close. Oh, and +1 on the electronic shutter opposed to a mechanical one :D
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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2011, 09:18:10 AM »
Glenn,

Here is the picture of the first of the popular Nikon rangefinders, the Nikon 1 ca 1948. This model was heavily used in the Korean war in place of the more common Leica (another rangefinder of PJs). Korea, w/c you may know, has very bad winters. This camera survived those harsh conditions and whose controls and dials can be operated.



Now here are 2 pictures of the Sony Nex-7:





  Assuming the construction of the dials are good, w/c one can easily take from their SLTs if they want to, I don't see any problem moving those dials with a heavy mitt or gloves in a cold environment. There are no small buttons there and even if there are, they are spaced well enough that a thick glove will accidentally trigger the other. Besides, the basic controls truly need to change settings (aperture, shutter speed) are in the dials. And you have 3 of them! And you can program them to suit your needs.

  If there are any problems in there is how the LED/viewfinder will hold in cold weather. One thing for sure, the battery life will be less in cold weather. But this is not any different since the old Nikon F3 and those whose meter used batteries. The trick is to put those batteries in your pocket to keep warm and then you put them in the camera when you will need them.

  In short, I don't think this is an issue at all. Even if there are problems in the initial designs, no doubt, they can be addressed in the succeeding models. The rangefinder type of design after all isn't new. It's just re-issuing it with modern electronics and making sure that those dials and buttons move in wide temp and humidity range. And since there are more electronics in today's camera, weather sealing also becomes paramount.


 This is how the Nikon 1 rangefinder and optics, made it's mark to show you that rangefinder designs can be used in really rough situations:
 
After the war Nippon Kōgaku reverted to producing its civilian product range in a single factory. In 1948, the first Nikon-branded camera was released, the Nikon I.[5] Nikon lenses were popularised by the American photojournalist David Douglas Duncan's use at the time of the Korean War. Duncan, who was working in Tokyo when the Korean War began, met a young Japanese photographer, Jun Miki, who introduced Duncan to Nikon lenses. From July 1950 to January 1951, Duncan covered the Korean War.[6] Fitting Nikon optics to his Leica rangefinder cameras produced high contrast negatives with very sharp resolution at the centre field.

  Nikon perfected the Nikon 1 in the Nikon SP, w/c is considered the PJs main tool, till their SLR took over about 2 decades later in the F series, primarily the legendary F2.

Nikon SP:




   The issue of PJ use is not an issue for me. Remember, the Nex-7 is basically the street photographer's camera. Though I am not sure if it will be able to handle the rough winters of Korea or in the northern most parts of Canada, no doubt, anything they find out wrong with it, they can always improve upon on the next version. If you ask me, the batteries will go first due to the cold than being able to fiddle the buttons and dials. If any improvements that have to be done to the Nex-7, it will be in the weather sealing, and if the EVF/LCD can handle the sub zero temps.

  But you must also remember, very few cameras can operate in those conditions either. Even the 1D's and Nikon's D3's will be severely tested in such conditions. What you are asking is a super and above board camera. At this stage, MILCs are not into those specs to handle that yet. They are still busy securing the future. To do that, you cater first to the most number of people and the way they will use the camera. '
 

  Taking a leaf from the Olympus E-1, w/c was really well built, and Oly wanted it to be the pro's choice eventually. In fact, the early promos and marketing spiel of the E1 is that it is for the pros. Very good as it was, and  could really be taken to the top of Mt. Everest, the Oly series never really caught on. It would then be a mistake, to reach for a specification at this time that most will not need. Think about it, you'd probably be not be out there at minus 10 degrees celcius!  :o  So, don't expect the gear to be up there when most won't be!  ;D



 
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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2011, 09:22:13 AM »
From what I know, Sony is headed to the direction of what caterpillar envisions. This is especially true with their latest DSLR hybrid. They're trying to meld the best of both worlds. From their perspective, MILCs don't necessarily have to have smaller bodies all the time. When the mirror mechanism is removed, manufacturers will have a heck of a lot more space to cram in just about anything: bigger battery, more electronic components, etc. I tend to agree. Nikon is quoted as disagreeing on that, though. But then again, they may already experimenting and using the Nikon 1 series as test bed, hence the reason why they didn't create it for pros. They'll use consumers as test bed on how far they can go with the mirrorless concept and then eventually incorporate those ideas in their pro line once they feel confident enough.

I tend to agree with Sony, though. Remove the mirrors, and you can use the extra space for a lot of enhancements (quad-core cpu perhaps?). Right now, though, OVFs have distinct advantages over EVFs, but given a year, the gap may be really close. Oh, and +1 on the electronic shutter opposed to a mechanical one :D

  Normally, the DSP chip that handles the post capture from the sensor. If you look at the size of the DSP chip, it isn't that big. They have used 2 of that in the D1x (digic 4 or 5?) simply because the DSP will have to handle a 35FF sensor data and maybe even go for 10+ fps for many frames in continuous shooting. But without a doubt, a Digic 6 of the future will be able to do what a 2 or 3 digic 4's or 5 now. If you see the PC cpu's they pack more punch and still retain the same relative size. YOu can call it a quadcore or whatever, though DSP's often don't refer to their functions as such (since they are not general purpose computers), no doubt they use the same principles. DSP's tend to be more like video cards in function, than general purpose cpu's. If any, having a quadcore is a step back. Video cards tend to to hundreds even thousands of tasks at the same time. The data coming out of a sensor, in multiple pipelines simply is too much for even a 6-8 core traditional cpu. That's why they don't call it as such.  :D

 So, what do you do basically with the space vacated by the removal of the mirror box and pentaprism? Well, basically they just reclaim it. Since the DSP will eventually be the same size, but more powerful in the future, the space, if you ask me, is best use for battery. I notice that as the cameras get smaller, the battery life seems less. In terms of Lithium-ion technology, volume still means more watt-hour or amper-hours or more shots possible.

  This is assuming, they will use that for battery storage. But I doubt it. Most likely this quest for smallness will sacrifice battery life. Any increase in number of shots but with a smaller battery will have to come from the battery technology improvements. The sensor, DSP, EVF/LCD improvements are moving at a fast pace. What does not move as much is the battery life.

    I think they will just reclaim that space, and then focus on their next target for miniturization or making small - lenses. Though there is a limit on the glass size due to physics, no doubt, but there is still room for design to make them shorter. There is also room to R&D on motor size and how to move the glass inside.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 09:42:52 AM by caterpillar »
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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2011, 10:17:46 AM »
Glenn,

Here is the picture of the first of the popular Nikon rangefinders, the Nikon 1 ca 1948. This model was heavily used in the Korean war in place of the more common Leica (another rangefinder of PJs). Korea, w/c you may know, has very bad winters. This camera survived those harsh conditions and whose controls and dials can be operated.

  In short, I don't think this is an issue at all. Even if there are problems in the initial designs, no doubt, they can be addressed in the succeeding models. The rangefinder type of design after all isn't new. It's just re-issuing it with modern electronics and making sure that those dials and buttons move in wide temp and humidity range. And since there are more electronics in today's camera, weather sealing also becomes paramount.

Mel- fair enough. Thinking outside the box will yield better products for us in the future just like how Mac have regained its placed in the electronic or digital market.


Fair enough. 

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2011, 10:06:50 PM »
It'd be great if there is a camera that can address our wish lists but I use my cameras until they die which is almost never. I think upgrading is just our need to want something better through a technology jump without trying to maximize what we've got first. GAS is really tough to beat though and I get the itch a lot!

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2011, 02:04:14 AM »
Sir Mel,

Do you think we can use the Sony cams for wedding ?

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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2011, 09:44:29 AM »
Sir Mel,

Do you think we can use the Sony cams for wedding ?


Hello, again, Glenn!

  Well I don't see why not? Let's go back about 10 years and we'll see the lowly canon D60, a 6mp, 3fps, slow 3-point AF, slow shutter lag, being used for weddings. It will cost you about P110k body only then. Now take even a 1000d, costing about P24k with kit lens, and it will basically be on par with it and even beat it in terms of low light performance, AF speed, and pixel count.

  That should go the same with Sony, Pentax, or any other brand name, DSLR or in the case of Sony, NEX cameras. If any, the fast shutter lag, low light performance, swift 10fps and other enhancements even put them up with with the D7000 or 60d except in some other areas. But for wedding purposes, they should be fine.

  What will be hard for people to accept is that the future wave of pro use cameras will be small and light. The macho effect will be gone. But if any, as far as the final result and performance metrics goes, MILCs can be and are slowly showing that they can be used for pro work.

  Sony is pushing the envelop for serious pro work on this, even without mentioning it. So with Panasonic with the GH2. You have to understand that they are trying to change the model of cameras. To try to make a MILC as pro at this time is to prematurely be a target for criticism w/c will have a latent negative memory effect for future acceptance. Hence, they never refer it as a pro camera at this time. Olympus tried to do that with the E1 years ago. Though the E1 is really capable, it was still wanting, especially in the areas of low light performance and lack of lenses.

  These are lessons that must be learned and if Sony and Panasonic's actions are showing, they are trying not to replicate. With the future being MILCs, the reason for the E family/line is basically a dead end. With their own fiasco with the company, sad to say, the future of Olympus as a contender is a bit shaky. :(

   I only have my eye on 3 companies for MILCs - Sony, Panasonic, and later on Canon (once they bring out their own camera). Nikon's efforts, I think is a big mis-step. Unless they have another R&D team working on a larger sensor, the 1 series will not gain any traction in the upper middle and upper segments. It is simply too limited. And expensive.

   Going back to Sony, just think about it. Get a NEX-5n or 7 and do weddings. Is it doable? Why not? It is not sports or action. And the low light, fast shutter and shutter lag are big bonuses. Add the pano modes, and multiple shots features, and you basically can do basic wedding stuff but more.

  If any weaknesses one can find with the NEX is the lack of lenses, at this time. The kit lens is very good, but they still have to build a 17-55 f2.8 OS, a 10-22mm, and a 85 f1.4-1.8 OS. They do that, and they are near completion. Only a 70-200 f2.8 OS is needed. I see the basic lenses still to be completed by 2012, with the 70-200 f2.8 in 2013.

  So, if anything will hold the wedding shooter at this time is the lens. And maybe the NEX's flash options. The first one can be solved by 3rd party lenses or using legacy lenses. You will lose AF though, and that may be a hindrance to some.

  As for the flash, well, Sony has to build them and make them easy to integrate without having to buy adapters even in the 5 line. So, as far as that goes, it is still a rough approach. Not good at all.

  The good thing is the NEX and their current SLT's sensors are so good in high ISO-low light, that in many situations, you can shoot at ISO 1600-3200  and get away with it. Still, Sony must address the flash issues because, like or not, even for me, who try not to fire too much flashes, flash lighting is still needed in some situations.


  BTW, I still have the 400d you sold me :) It still serves me well even if it is 5 years old.
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Re: The camera body that guarantees No upgrade for at least 5 years
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2011, 12:36:08 PM »

  As for the flash, well, Sony has to build them and make them easy to integrate without having to buy adapters even in the 5 line. So, as far as that goes, it is still a rough approach. Not good at all.



This is my main concern. Flash is really important for me in wedding. I don't know if High ISO capability can do the job since the fastest glass they have is 2.8. Maybe as 2nd or 3rd body.

But I'd like to try though... been eyeing for mirror-less camera for months now. IMHO, Sony has the edge in terms of ISO performance and color rendering. I'm trying to convince myself for Panasonic or Oly but I don't know... I still don't get their technology for using a smaller sensor.

Do we have Sony center where we can buy all NEX accessories ? Like EVF... adapter... etc... ?




  BTW, I still have the 400d you sold me :) It still serves me well even if it is 5 years old.


Wow... that camera serves you well. Glad to hear that it's still alive and clicking.

I wonder if mirror-less camera today will last that long or for heavy use at least.


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